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Strength and Agility

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Nomaru
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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Mon 23 Mar - 20:39

Sorry. What I meant by that was that weapons have damage points assigned to them, like in all MMO's. There's just no ability point modifier to those weapons. Strength weapons deal more damage, but you'd need to allocate more points to strength in order to use them (thus, you'd be slower). Agility weapons will do less damage, but will still be reasonable in a fight. Strength builds, however, will have so much health that it will still take forever to kill one, just a bit shorter than dealing damage like a level 1 character. As for people, I plan on going full agility, I know another person who plans on going full agility, and another who plans on going 90% agility 10% strength. And that's out of the 6-7 people who I know of their planned ability point allocations.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Shadrixt on Mon 23 Mar - 20:44

Well then you guys wont exactly be able to last long in a fight up against a strength/agility player who can predict what you guys are going to try and pull on them... Yes swords designated to agility will still do good enough but really it depends on player stats doesn't it? That and what sword they fight with suiting them and they way the would want to fight. SAO was to be different from other MMO's wasn't it? No offence on the first part.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Mon 23 Mar - 20:55

I get your point on the first part, but I don't think we should limit players to just strength and hybrid builds. A full strength build will have enough health and deal enough damage to deal with a hybrid build, even if the hybrid is much faster than they are. A hybrid can move fast enough to keep up with an agility and take enough damage to deal with not being able to dodge all of a strength player's techniques. Agility builds would literally have to take hours to kill a single character on higher levels. I'm not saying let them deal damage like a strength player, but let them deal enough damage that they become useless for everything except scouting and running away from dangerous situations, because I think that would be a waste. I'm going agility because, in anime, I always loved that one badass who can just move so fast no one can catch him. that's who I want to be, and right now SAO is designed in a way that I can't. Now, if I can't convince you guys, I'm still going to try (i'm already training irl to deal with the limited health issue), but I really hope I can convince you guys to make an agility build relevant.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Akira on Mon 23 Mar - 21:07

Actually the weapons are up-gradable in stats, Before an item can be enhanced, the "Reinforcing" option on the pop-up window of the blacksmith's furnace must be selected and the blacksmith must then choose the desired property of the enhancement and put all gathered materials into the furnace.[2] Once all of the materials are liquified in mere moments, the colour of the flame changes to represent the chosen property: silver for sharpness[2], blue for accuracy[3] and other colours for quickness, heaviness and durability. Then, the item must be inserted into the furnace and kept there until it starts glowing.[2] Afterwards, the item must be moved onto an anvil and hit with a blacksmith's hammer for exactly ten times, no matter the number of enhancements that have been carried out on the same item.[2] After the first hit[3], the ten hits must be carried out within three minutes or the enhancement will result in an automatic failure.[2] Taken from the sao wiki. Also thanks noma for explaning that to kobs new member. Also im starting to think the level system is pretty high, cause i have 140 levels all ready figured out exp wise, and it takes alot to get there


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Shadrixt on Mon 23 Mar - 21:08

I wasn't saying that Full Strength builds would be good. Nor was i intending for that to come across seeing as you wouldn't be able to move fast enough to swing back at a hybrid or Agility type. Yeah I get what you meant by wanting to be what you want to be but you still need to be strong enough to fight back in scouting out dungeons. Thats why we see Kirito doing a bit of it. Oh thanks for clearing that up Akira.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Mon 23 Mar - 21:14

np.  Also, the enhancement system can still work with fixed weapon stats.  We just make the stats naturally a bit lower, and allow them to be upgraded.  Maybe i have the wrong idea on how to do this, but I think we can all agree that all three possible builds using our system (agility, strength, and hybrid) should be useful in combat, right? I personally think it's a waste to only have hybrid be useful. Think to games like Elder Scrolls, with only 3 places to put skill points. Generally, there wasn't a "wrong" place to put it, just places that suited different playing styles. These playing styles would be the high speed acrobat who is easy to kill, but hard to catch; the badass who just takes all of your punishment and launches you halfway accross the map with one hand tied behind his back; and a hybrid who's a jack of all trades, master of none. I think we have a lot of space to develop this into something really cool, we just need to modify it a little bit.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Shadrixt on Mon 23 Mar - 21:21

I know but going for a full build in either style isnt the best idea. You still have to include a bit of each style otherwise it becomes harder to counter the complete opposite.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Mon 23 Mar - 21:26

I agree it should be hard, but not impossible. Think of it as a risk-reward kind of system. If a strength build can learn to predict the movements of an agility or hybrid build and attack accordingly, then they can easily survive much of the punishment those builds could give them. In reverse, if an agility build can use irl skills to stay untouchable, then they should be able to obliterate the higher HP through a constant barrage of attacks, almost too fast to keep track of. Right now, only one of those is possible (the strength one), and that seems a bit unbalanced. I agree that most players will (and should) go with a hybrid, but I think that we should reward those people who can make up for their weaknesses with IRL skills by allowing them the ability to use these kinds of characters.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Mon 23 Mar - 21:35

Though, I guess I owe an apology. This is a much bigger deal than I intended it to be. I honestly thought that you guys would see things the way I see them, and I guess you don't. I wish you would, lol, but oh well. I guess my character type doesn't quite fit with this system, I'll have to wait for another game to come out where it does. Again, I'm sorry I made such a big deal out of it.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by lucarioman555 on Mon 23 Mar - 21:52

I TURN AROUND FOR 1 MINUTE AND lol! JK guys i was thinking that weapon stats themselves should be relatively low (except in the case of rare drops or very rare material used to forge it)  and the stats of the player would act as a multiplier. The weapons still need to be distinguishable from each other likr the speed type sword lisbeth had made was very different than the elucidator. So the modelers need to have in mind what kind of weapon they are making in a way right now we are the blacksmiths we can't just throw a sword together we need to have stat's in mind as well as abilities.

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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Akira on Mon 23 Mar - 21:55

lol, Nice one. and it would depend on the floors number, and material, and type its self.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Shadrixt on Mon 23 Mar - 22:19

Along with the Blacksmiths skill right?


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Akira on Mon 23 Mar - 22:30

Yeah, u can only modify stuff/forge stuff with the blacksmith skill.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by lucarioman555 on Wed 25 Mar - 10:23

Remember guys it's not all about the players stats either. The skill level of that players chosen combat skills have the biggest effect. So if im a sword and shield user im leveling up that skill to become more efficent at it ( Up to level 1,000 that is ) So if i was going to duel some one and i jumped into a mace skill for the duel i would absolutely suck at it. So the combat skill is also a multiplier of sorts.


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Nomaru
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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Wed 25 Mar - 14:42

Yep. I don't think we should completely account for that when designing the game (with the exception of maybe adding more lunging and distance-closing sword skills for the smaller weapons), but that's definitely something to think about. I personally am training with my chosen weapon so that I'll be at least proficient with it once the game launches (hopefully an expert, but I probably won't get much formal training...)


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by HourlongFall on Wed 25 Mar - 14:45

Nomaru wrote:Yep.  I don't think we should completely account for that when designing the game (with the exception of maybe adding more lunging and distance-closing sword skills for the smaller weapons), but that's definitely something to think about.  I personally am training with my chosen weapon so that I'll be at least proficient with it once the game launches (hopefully an expert, but I probably won't get much formal training...)
I don't think you need formal training either. I'm pretty skilled with a sword(It's made of wood but a bit heavy) and i haven't got any formal training. I guess all of those stick wars in the forest as a kid finally paid of


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Wed 25 Mar - 14:50

True, though it depends on what you're up against. I'm trying to gain the skills necessary to never get hit in combat, even once. That means I need to master identifying enemy attacks and dodging out of the way. Actually attacking with the weapons is less important, because we'll have sword skills, but moving your body in a fight and analyzing your opponent's techniques and fighting styles are all things that may not require formal training, but will be greatly improved by it. Right now my plan is to find a couple of friends in college, get them all hyped about this, and start training with them. If I can find a Tonfa teacher, then i'll probably take some classes, maybe work my way up to a black belt (so that my weapon will start to feel like an extension of myself), but It's not like i plan to travel halfway around the country to train with the strongest Tonfa wielders in the world, i'm not that dedicated, lol.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by HourlongFall on Wed 25 Mar - 14:56

Nomaru wrote:True, though it depends on what you're up against.  I'm trying to gain the skills necessary to never get hit in combat, even once.  That means I need to master identifying enemy attacks and dodging out of the way.  Actually attacking with the weapons is less important, because we'll have sword skills, but moving your body in a fight and analyzing your opponent's techniques and fighting styles are all things that may not require formal training, but will be greatly improved by it.  Right now my plan is to find a couple of friends in college, get them all hyped about this, and start training with them.  If I can find a Tonfa teacher, then i'll probably take some classes, maybe work my way up to a black belt (so that my weapon will start to feel like an extension of myself), but It's not like i plan to travel halfway around the country to train with the strongest Tonfa wielders in the world, i'm not that dedicated, lol.
Well true, but the skill to dodge can come naturally to some or trough training, or sometimes both. It might just be me bragging but after some time practicing karate i can pretty easily read my opponent and dodge/counter without a bigger problem.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Wed 25 Mar - 15:34

Well, dodging in hand-to-hand is different from dodging weapons, and each individual weapon has different attacks you need to learn. Also, if you're hoping to dodge 100% of the time, you need to master dodging to a much higher level. You're probably so good at Karate because you have trained against the same kind of attacks for a long time, so reading them comes easily to you, but if someone comes at you with a spear or a sword you're facing a completely different moveset. Trust me, I know (I've spent a lot of time in martial arts as well).


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by HourlongFall on Wed 25 Mar - 16:12

Nomaru wrote:Well, dodging in hand-to-hand is different from dodging weapons, and each individual weapon has different attacks you need to learn.  Also, if you're hoping to dodge 100% of the time, you need to master dodging to a much higher level.  You're probably so good at Karate because you have trained against the same kind of attacks for a long time, so reading them comes easily to you, but if someone comes at you with a spear or a sword you're facing a completely different moveset.  Trust me, I know (I've spent a lot of time in martial arts as well).  
I am aware of this but we have the system assist to make this somewhat easier. But when i said i consider myself good, i meant i consider myself good a dodging in general.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Wed 25 Mar - 16:37

The system assist only helped with offense and with parrying, at least in the anime. That's why Kirito, when he came out and fought Suguha (Leefa), said that his footwork was great, but his attacks were lacking, and that's why he lost. The only system assists we get are sword skills and bodies that are significantly stronger/faster than human bodies.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by HourlongFall on Wed 25 Mar - 16:43

Nomaru wrote:The system assist only helped with offense and with parrying, at least in the anime.  That's why Kirito, when he came out and fought Suguha (Leefa), said that his footwork was great, but his attacks were lacking, and that's why he lost.  The only system assists we get are sword skills and bodies that are significantly stronger/faster than human bodies.
Okay, i know so much. All i'm saying is that personally i feel confident in my skills of attacking, defending, parrying/dodging and fighting in general. But sure i get what you are saying


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by Nomaru on Wed 25 Mar - 16:45

I guess we'll have to wait until we get in-game to find out, lol. I personally don't think you can ever have too much training, so I'll be spending the next seven years trying to get as strong as I can.


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by HourlongFall on Wed 25 Mar - 16:57

Nomaru wrote:I guess we'll have to wait until we get in-game to find out, lol.  I personally don't think you can ever have too much training, so I'll be spending the next seven years trying to get as strong as I can.  
Oh don't get me wrong, i won't just sit and be lazy, my reflexes could be improved and my parrying could also be better. I'm going to get prepared as well


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Re: Strength and Agility

Post by lucarioman555 on Mon 30 Mar - 19:44

Please stop using Agility as your term for speed! Agility is the ability to change the body's position, and requires a combination of balance, coordination, speed, reflexes, strength, endurance,and stamina. While speed is the rate at which someone or something is able to move or operate! Sop please stop using Agility to define speed of the character. I'm OCD and ADHD So Everything has to be PERFECT But only for like 10 seconds XD

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